Magnet Waffle 1

Its the inaugural magnets waffle!

I can't believe we haven't waffled online about this... this comes up so often real world in so many places... its a bit of fun, but it can get a little cranky, so just remember we've got a broad audience and we're playing 'devils advocate'/purely speculative.

I have to say upfront: I know about thermodynamics, Lenz law, transmission losses, friction, and limits. I've taken formal study in that stuff... this is more to explore some of the fallacies that come along every once in a while.

I have some understanding of physics, of maths and especially of ERoEI (energy returned vs energy invested): this is more of a debunking hypothetical for use in real world discussions if/when they come up from time to time. I've seen this come up more often than I'd care to admit at the local pub, along with people doing divide by zero fallacy arguments...

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=34438.0

if we read that, and some of the math stack exchange and ViXra stuff, we get a fair idea of the background...

Without further ado, behold a crude sketch!

Okay, so here's a simple sketch done in paint.

If you've seen something like this somewhere else before: could you share the link and tell me the names for it? Cheers

the magnetic field lines have been simplified (in reality, they are 3Dimensional etc): note the purple-purple color for the repulsion interface... Omitted are the circuit diagrams which would include capacitors (due to alternating current) and wires to earth, etc.

Let's assume that the magnets on either end of the Newton Cradle are either hemispherical (so the field only magnetically interacts outside the cradle in a confined area, doesn't interact with the cradle or interfere* with the cradle balls in any way associated with its magneticness) or are monopole magnets of some sort...

Lets assume that the green magnets on the induction coil piston do not interfere in any way with the induction coil/impede the coils conductivity: the green magnet precisely pushes the yellow core back to its tipping point. I do not know the means by which the green magnet is 'off' such that the yellow magnet may move towards it unimpeded (i suspect this is a weak spot of the fable, probably an electromagnet therfore ERoEI doesn't break 1:1 requirement).

Lets assume that the yellow magnet is somehow held in place at the start point such that it can frictionlessly move towards green magnet but doesn't stick or bounce off once it returns... 

Lets assume there's no mains power: just a capacitor that then attaches to an LED or something... gotta have the "look ma, no mains!" part to make it bonafide.

Having done systems theory, I immediately go for "there are too many parts/moving parts which will require replacing" then, i switch to combinatorics/compatibilism and think "Babushka limits". Nothing will be able to consistently exceed the limits enough for this to work/if only you could overcome friction here, here... and here. heh.

How long might a rig like this hypothetically run for, before requiring kinetic energy input in the newton cradle? 

You can see my next question: how long would a device such as this have to operate continuously for, before it 'broke even' with the ERoEI materials inputs cost (energy of materials in construction + transport + fabrication, we won't include the food it took to sustain the people at each step in the process...)?

How long would it have to operate continuously for to power anything useful? (ie, an electromagnet, a bank of LED's, a radio, a Raspberry Pi?)
Could the coils be used to extend the duration that the Newton's Cradle remains in motion?

I've done some theoretical numbers...

the longest a Newton cradle can operate for on avg. is ~ 2mins. Assuming the "magnetic balls modification" doesn't significantly alter performance, we can assume therefore that the run time is ~2mins for the apparatus... (note, as the apparatus was in use and aged, this performance metric would deteriorate).

The balls will only be in a particular range of repulsion for a limited portion of that ~2min swing time, maybe 20seconds total (being generous), so of the total cycles for the newton cradle, only ~8 will connect with the coils on each end...

The coils will have a maximum size based on the constraints we have placed upon the performance requirements... thus, there will be for each run, 2 shuttles per coil (one going away from the apparatus, one going towards the cradle), for a total of ~16 per coil/~32 for the whole rig.

Each run will induce x amount of current... for a total of 32 x a run's current value.

The ERoEI of materials in the rig, if converted to fraction of a barrel of oil (or barrels of oil), and then to the equivalent electrical value via a joules conversion... is approaching a few (more if we extend total systems inputs to include transportation, assembly, parts replacements, food for the people at each step, etc...).

The amount of power generated each run is a tiny fraction of a barrel, not even approaching a 10x10^9th amount... its tiny.

AH! But you could run the device for a long time... every 3 minutes or so, you could put more energy into the Newtons Cradle, and start it again...

Bah, so what if that would be BILLIONS OF YEARS before you ever even approached 1:1 ERoEI materials breakeven point... (not to mention successive generations in the meantime).

So, how would the above rig compare with other ideas?

A potato battery is x amount more efficient, a hand-cranked dynamo is more efficient... pedal power, solar, exo and endothermic reactions... ion energy, tidal energy...

And thats eschewing all the friction losses and the puck/magnetcradleball wobbles, the decreased collision efficiency, and timing issues.

A fun experiment to introduce people to electricity, or newton cradles, or limits/exponentials etc, but not one you'd ever want someone to seriously try making, like solar roadways or perpetual waterwheels...

I'll spare you the "perpetual upright solenoid"/thermal and pressure solenoid variants and more sophisticated spherical versions for another day;

(these are hypothetically ones grownups have been playing with: with superconductors and flexible surfaces and semiconductors/nanoelectronics on the micro,meso and one day macro scales).

I'd sure be interested in your thoughts if you've come across this variant before or if you've tried contemplating the ERoEI of this concept before...

also any other similar stories involving magnets would be great to share